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May 03, 2005
The torture debate
After writing my previous post about torture, I couldn't help thinking about all the arguments I've read on both sides about the morality of torture. This seems to be one of the many issues that is split right down partisan lines. Although the President superficially condems torture, in general, conservatives are more likely to be in favor of allowing torture to advance American interests, and liberals are more likely to be opposed.
That said, I present to you the first episode of Left, Right, Fight a hypothetical debate show that pits stereotypes of Liberals and Conservatives against each other to discuss the hot topic of the day. Today's episode deals with the morality of torture and the war on terrorism. Before we get started, let's meet our contestants:
Liberal: Hi, I'm a Taurus from California. I voted for John Kerry in the last election, although Howard Dean was my top choice. I enjoy hiking, discussing politics, and drinking lattes.
Conservative: I'm a Longhorn from the great state of Texas. I voted for our President, George W. Bush, in the last election, and I think he may be the greatest Commander-in-Chief in the history of our great country. I enjoy hunting, talking about sports, and drinking beer.
C: Here goes the 'Blame America First' crowd again. Answer this: Do terrorists beheading soldiers and civilians in Iraq give a damn about UN conventions? Where's the outcry about the terrorists' cruelty? We're at war, and sometimes in war you've got to sink to the level of your enemy. Anyone who says Bush should be tried for war crimes should be tried for treason.
Find out who wins Round 1 after the jump..
Winner: Round 1 goes to the Liberal. Although the Liberal critique can be a little reactionary and knee-jerk at times, our Conservative friend loses all credibility when using the phrase 'Blame America First.' Of course we blame America first. We're Americans, and that's the only country we really have control over. We can't control what extremist groups in other countries do, but we can speak out when our own government, which is a representation of us, does something that makes us look bad. Who is the better parent: The parent that gives their child loving support while turning a blind-eye to the child's screw-ups, or the parent that disciplines and teaches their child to grow up and lead a positive life?
C: As I said before, a war is going on. People are trying to kill you. What if the information we extract through torture can be used to save lives by preventing another September 11? What if the life of your wife or child was saved because of information obtained by torturing a terrorist?
L: How many innocent people have been detained and tortured that we don't know about? There are no public trials. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Imagine being an innocent person, who happens to be Arab or Muslim, who is detained and tortured for months and months. Not to metion the physical anguish of being electrocuted or beaten, the psychological damage would stay with you for the rest of your life. Just because of the way you look or worship.
Winner: Round 2 is a toss up, but we'll give it to the Conservative just to keep the score tied and go on to another round. Both parties are presenting valid arguments, but it comes down to a cost-benefit analysis that is hard to apply to moral issues: How many lives should be sacrificed to save one? How many 'enemy' lives equal one American life? If you imagine a member of your family dying in an attack that could have been prevented through torture interrogation, it's easy to side with the Conservative. But if you imagine a member of your family being held for months and brutally tortured, the Liberal wins. Maybe Round 3 will decide the winner.
L: You're an ignorant, Neanderthal, redneck. Why don't you and your simple-minded, daddy's-boy President go fight in the war. You should be tortured yourself for every time your gas-guzzling, Nascar-watching ass said torture was o.k.
C: You elitist, whining, sissy. Why don't you and your liberal-biased media move to another country if you're going to whine about ours. Your New-York-Times-reading, Will-and-Grace-watching, iced-cappucino-with-organic-diet-foam-drinking ass is un-American.
L: Moron.
C: Snob.
Winner: No one is a winner in Round 3. When the debate degrades into this back-and-forth name-calling, nothing productive will follow. This phenomenon, known as the Round 3 Rule has been known to occur in conversations about any politically charged topic: abortion, gay marriage, religion and state, Janet Jackson.
If the Round 3 Rule had not kicked in and ruined our debate, both contestants might have bonded on the realization that both of their arguments are full of holes. When trying to make a moral argument for or against torture, there are an infinite number of scenarios that can be used to support or oppose your case. What if torture could have stopped Hitler or Bin Laden? What if... you get the point.
So what's the answer? As the moderator of this debate, I am inclined to say adhering to the rule of law will move us in the right direction. Objective laws are designed to remove the moral ambiguity of sticky issues. Since we can't consider each scenario on a case-by-case basis, a law that applies to everyone, in every situation, provides universal protection.
But, that in itself raises a host of questions about who enforces international human rights laws. And what about groups that exist seperate from nation-states? And HOW do you enforce an international law?
Well, that's all the time we have for this edition of Left, Right, Fight. Tune in next time when our contestants discuss the topic, God: Who's side is He on?
Posted by Elyas at 04:11 PM | Comments (9) | TrackBack
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Comments
D. What torture in Abu Gharib? You mean the rape rooms, mutilation and execution under the Ba'athists? If you are calling the humiliation and abuse by Lynndie England that, then perhaps the world needs to explain why it has not said squat about Havanna and 50 other governments
Just adding another dimension to the discussion
Posted by: Don Surber at May 3, 2005 09:06 PM
Don,
Thanks for the comment, but you're just rehashing what our Conservative contestant said in Round 1. Why when the subject of U.S. torture comes up do conservatives feel the need to deflect the attention to other countries? The use of torture by Saudia Arabia, Cuba, Saddam, etc. (and have been condemned by the UN, for what it's worth) has little to do with our own practices. It's not like, "Hey, Sadam had rape rooms, so no one should care if we pile some prisoners up naked and throw shit on them."
Personally, I like to see the U.S. as a leader in the world, rather than using the excuse, "No one else follows all these treaties, so why should we?"
Posted by: Elyas at May 4, 2005 11:50 AM
Elyas, I agree that the behavior at Abu Ghraib was terrible and those responsible should be punished. However, I think Don was echoing a sentiment shared by a lot of people in regards to the coverage of the abuses. When you look at the acts, what happened in Abu Ghraib was minor compared to the abuses that went on in Iraq before, or that is still going on in Cuba or a number of other places. Why is the entire world (not just the US media) quiet when it comes to the violent torture, rape and murder when it is by someone else, yet won't let it go when some rogue soldiers pile some prisoners up naked. I'm not saying they shouldn't be angered by it, because we need to be setting an example - but be angry at the other stuff too. As it stands, it comes across as purely anti-American, instead of anti-abuse.
Posted by: Patriot Xeno at May 13, 2005 09:06 AM
You cats have no idea what torture is. You think rape rooms and wires to testicles is torture? Try these:
-Being forced to watch episode after episode of Gilmore Girls, over and over and over again for eternity.
-Yoko Ono and Britney Spears doing a duet together
-The Star Wars Holiday Special. 'nuff said
-French kissing Michael Moore.
-Eating at McDonalds
...is that enough for ya?
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